I haven't been there much on Saturdays this year, as I have been running instead. The few times I have made it out, though, the biggest problem I have observed is that the 19 group is way too big leaving Longbottoms. As Doug stated, a lot of the 19s should really be in the 21s, and the 19s that remain should be broken into groups no larger than 12-15 riders and spaced at least one minute apart. I think we all have assumed that groups will kind of form out on the road. Eventually they do, but it seems to take a long time. In the meantime, we get the problems Geoff alluded to above, and the large group is really hard to control as far as pace. Another problem with a big group, especially in the rear, is yo-yo'ing. A few weeks ago, I was near the back, and the speed would go from 17 to 23 to 16 to 24. One minute, you'd be pedaling hard to keep up, and the next you're tapping the brakes and yelling "slowing." After awhile, it started to get irritating, not to mention tiring. I think we really need to make an effort to form smaller groups like we've talked about, and make sure they're sufficiently spaced from the beginning with the 19+ group rolling out first.

This whole speed thing is a very interesting phenomenon.  When I was searching the web for rides in michigan, I found the local club's forum and saw exactly the same issue being discussed.  Clearly it's not just a PV thing.  I think part of the problem is that there is a whole spectrum of speed out there, and people's abilities don't just fall into discrete 2MPH bins.  In any of the groups, you are going to have a couple who can and want to push the pace up to the high end of the band and a couple who really struggle to hang on even at the stated average.  Now add in the fact that we all have good and bad days, and well, even if we think we are in the right group sometimes we get dropped, which just makes a bad day even worse.  It's those days though that make you a stronger rider, and they're just part of the process of improving.

 Then there are the sandbaggers.  By that, I don't mean lazy slobs like me who will ride outside of the H&N group because I'm dreading Sunday's track workout, but the few guys who feel the need to show the 21's, 19's, 17's, or even 15's just how strong they are.  There are a few techniques a reasonably strong ride leader can use to fix this problem without ever having to say a word.  I can almost guarantee that when these guys shoot off the front, or start ramping the pace up, not only do they not want to do a whole bunch of work by themselves, but they probably can't hold that pace by themselves either.  In most cases, all the ride leader has to do is to make an authoritative move to get up close to the front, preferably just behind the offenders, and just sit there at the stated pace and let a gap open.  9 times out of 10, the sandbaggers will get the message and slow down.  If they keep going off the front, or a large group splits into two, the problem has solved itself.  Having the ride leader work him or herself between the "fast guys" (think separating children) can work too.  And, if worse comes to worst, I've heard that sometimes a ride leader might pick a hotspot or hill to show the sandbaggers that they're not quite as fast as they think they are (I've never personally seen this happen though :) )

 There is another important question to ask though, and that is why are people getting dropped from these groups?  In most cases I've seen lately, it isn't because the group is simply moving too fast.  Instead, riding with the 21's and 19's what I've seen is a conspicuous lack of smoothness.  Most of it happens as people transition on and off the front causing the pace to vary up or down by 2-3 MPH.  What follows the sudden pace change is a whole cascade of fumbling through the rest of the group, ranging from annoying yo-yo amplification to dangerous half wheeling to people darting out into traffic and the back of the group compressing and spreading out across the road.  The poor riders working to hang on the back of the pack suffer the most from this, having to brake and accelerate over and over again until guess what?  That's right, one of those accelerations opens up a gap that they just can't close.

So, what I'm really trying to say is that there is a a sort of magic to a really smooth paceline that makes the difference between a 19 rider being able to go home floating high after cruising along for 40 miles at an effortless 21-22 MPH pace, and somebody having a really bad day getting dropped at 20 MPH.  I haven't felt much of that magic in the 19's or the 21's lately. 

Earlier in the spring I tried a couple of experiments though.  On a couple of rides that were mobbing the road, surging up and down, etc. I waited untile we were on a low traffic, relatively flat road and then got people going on a rotating double paceline.  It was a little scarey at first, but it really got people to concentrate on how they were riding.  With just a few minutes of coaching, things really smoothed out, and stayed that way for the rest of the ride.

Of course we have to be mindful of traffic conditions, but I think if all ride groups spent part of the Saturday ride doing some drills to actively improve smoothness, we would go a long way toward increasing safety and reducing dissatisfaction about pace variations.

As ususal, well said/well thought out Bob.

The real question I have is why is Bob posting at 3am. :)

Matt D'Elia:

The real question I have is why is Bob posting at 3am. :)

 

Matt,

I was wondering exactly the same thing, even before I read your post. As Mitch said, Bob's was a well written and thought-out post - especially considering it was posted in the middle of the night! The one last thing I wanted to add is that people should not be afraid to move up into the faster groups. I think a lot of us underestimate our strength and are a little intimidated by the faster groups. I say roll out with a faster group, especially if you're feeling strong that day. If the pace really does turn out to be a little too fast, you can always sit up and wait for the group behind to pick you up.

Bob,

It is 9:30 and I am 1/2 way to REM sleep - you amaze me.  

What I never have understood about this ongoing debate is why don't you simply let the yahoos go off the front and ride by themselves.  That or send Mitch or Steve back to share some "intervals" with them. 

Scott - time to go to bed. 

Mike, if people can't sit in at 19-19.5 then they should probably be riding with a slower group! I sat on the front of my group for the first 10 miles Saturday keeping tempo at 19-19.5 and no one passed me until we got to Farmington. At that point we slowed a bit but never strayed far from 19 on the flats. I noticed only a few riders willing to take a pull at the front. Maybe we need to make it clear that 19 doesn't mean sitting in for 40 miles but actually sharing some of the work.   

Marc,

I was in your group on Saturday, and I thought you did a great job setting the pace right from the start and keeping us from mingling with the 21s just ahead. As far as sharing the work and taking pulls, I agree. One or two riders should not have to spend the whole time at the front unless they want to be there. Along these lines, I expect the rider at the front to signal when his pull is done, and then move to the side to let the next in line pull through. Maybe the front rider really needs to soft pedal so the second in line gets the hint. As long as everyone is keeping a minimal gap to the rider in front, the work should be shared this way. Otherwise, I usually won't just move ahead of the rider in front of me, unless he slows significantly or lets a gap open to the rider in front of him.

Usually the ride leaders are a little stronger than the posted speed, so I would suggest this.

 Rider(s) trying to pull from the group and naturally the other riders will try and keep up. The ride leader leader needs to jump to the front if it goes on for too long. The ride leader sits in front and sits up a bit, and explains that the pace was too fast.

I have not been able to ride with PV much this year, but last year I did some rides as ride leader and if it got too aggressive, I would get in front, say something and slow the pace down. This worked just fine.

Also, on other occasions, we would get the A21's in a large group and we would decide to split it down. There were 5 to 10 of us who were fine with a A23 type speed, so we told the ride leader so he would know and we let everyone know what we were up to. We peeled off the front and had a great time. Of course that was because I knew several people who could push the pace, and I knew them well enough to make an ad hoc group.

This is always a fun topic and one I am glad to see so many seasoned veterans involved in. I think everyone has valid points and what it all boils down to for me is setting and keeping expectations. As ride leaders. we're never going to be able to completely control the pace, especially as the season progresses and riders are getting stronger. And its really hard to predict who is going to feel like going off the front - sometimes its hard enough for us to hold ourselves back, especially on a beautiful day and a road like Gales Creek.

Here are a few things to keep in mind:

• If you are leading a ride, make sure you let the folks in your group know how you are going to ride that day, what you expect the range of pace will be on the flats and on the climbs and whether or not you are planning to re-group. To Scott's point, let everyone know that if they jump off the front and get lost, tough ***.
• Also, if you are leading a ride, your are obligated to ride at the pace you establish at the beginning of the ride. As long as you communicate what your intention is, and folks have had a chance to opt in or out, that should be good enough. So if you're leading a 19, and you tell everyone its a 19-tempo or a true-19, then conduct the ride accordingly.
• If you are riding in a group and you feel like going hard at some point, let at least one person (preferably the ride leader) know what you're doing. Just a simple courtesy that lets you ride the way you want while not blowing up the group.
• Bottom line - talk to each other! This is a social club - its supposed to be fun.

Finally, remember our mantra "everyone has someone to ride with, no one walks away pissed off". There's a reason Portland Velo wins best cycling club every year, and its because we care about stuff like this. No, we're never going to be able to guarrantee that no one ever gets dropped, but if we as club members and ride leaders exercise common courtesy, then we can minimize those occurances and keep it loose and fun.

Carlo,

What's the difference between a 19-tempo and a true-19? Is this part of our new ride descriptions? I thought it was 19-comp and 19-fitness.

Yardsale. 

 

 

Sorry, just used these labels as an example.

I like the idea of two 19mph groups.

19 comp would be basically 19-20 on the flats with a few sprints and surges thrown in for good measure. We would let the group know where along the route these would happen so they can participate. We as always would have regroup spots.

19 tempo would be exactly that. 19-20 mph at a steady tempo. No sprints or surges and several regroups along the way.

Sound good?

Yardsale. 

 

 

 

 

of course it sounds good.. which is why I put together those specific group classifications!  Just need people to step up and actually lead these groups.

Here is a great discussion with a couple unique ideas for the continual challenge we face with group speeds.

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=445794

 Have a good century everyone and ride safe.

 

KRhea